But it is possible that Ms. Rowling may be mistaken about her own character. She may have invented Hogwarts and all the wizards within it, she may have created the most influential fantasy books since J. R. R. Tolkien, and she may have woven her spell over thousands of pages and seven novels, but there seems to be no compelling reason within the books for her after-the-fact assertion. Of course it would not be inconsistent for Dumbledore to be gay, but the books’ accounts certainly don’t make it necessary. The question is distracting, which is why it never really emerges in the books themselves. Ms. Rowling may think of Dumbledore as gay, but there is no reason why anyone else should.
If it doesn't matter, then why write about it? If, on the other hand, the coded language Rowling inserts does indicate Dumbledore's sexuality, then it is not just a "distraction", and it most certainly does mean that others should consider his sexuality as important. After all, throughout all the books, even the last one, after he died, he represents the forces of order, of the moral high ground against all those forces of compromise and cowardice that make the second rise of Voldemort all the easier. Dumbledore is a living embodiment of speaking the truth, regardless of consequences (even with his tacit admission, in a dream/afterlife sequence in the last book that he hid much from Harry that might have been important for Harry to know), against those "go along to get along" folks, including Cornelius Fudge, whose weakness and susceptibility to sycophants such as Lucius Malfoy cause such chaos.
Indeed, it would seem that his bravery might just stem from facing his own sexuality without fear. So, in the context of the story as it unfolds over the course of seven wonderful novels, it is most definitely important that Dumbledore is not only gay, but uncloseted. In the course of human history, however, including literary history, this isn't even a blip on the scale.
Please, for all our sakes. Shut up.
18 comments:
Sit down. Have a sip or two of brandy. This will come as a great shock to you:
I'm totally upset with this turn of events. As Rothstein suggests, Dumbledore's sexual preference is irrelevant. It's unnecessary, and inappropriate for a series of books intended mostly for children. It's also quite cowardly and arrogant to now, after raking in all the cash, and after the final installment is out there, make this announcement. If anyone should have shut up, it would be Rowling herself, right at the moment she felt like sharing this piece of filth with the world. Whether it was there all the time from book 1 on, or just something that came to her in writing the last, she, like so many in our educational system, certain governmental bodies, and bath houses across America and the world, have no business planting such weedlike seeds in children's books, thus consequently in the minds of the children of other people. Whether they like it or not, even the most militant homosexual activist must step aside for the rights of parents, knowing full well that their unseemly predelictions are not viewed with the same enthusiasm by most of the general population.
In the name of all that's Holy, for the sake of the children themselves, leave the kids the hell out of your sexual disfunction. This, by the way, encompasses not just homosexuality, but the entire decadence that has spread throughout our land since the shameful 60's.
Decadence that has spread throughout out land? And you want me to have a brandy? Marshall, sex outside of wedlock wasn't invented in 1964. My greatgrandmother was born as the result of an adulterous affair between a Union soldier home on leave during the Civil War and a fifteen year old girl who occasionally helped the man's wife out on the farm while he was away defending the Union. I think you might just want to calm down a tad and think this through.
That Dumbledore is gay is actually very important, as I outlined above, precisely because he is, even more than Harry Potter, the moral center of the story. That he is also a gay man - and that his identity as a gay man is incidental to his character - is revolutionary, in a way, when seen in retrospect.
Teaching our children tolerance and even acceptance of difference, especially sexual difference can only ever be a good thing. Teaching them that a human being can be a force for good in the world, and be gay, is a wonderful reminder that morality is not the sole possession of religious folk.
In all the annals of literary history, this is not a blip at all. It is important, however, because it is showing the stark difference between those who think that using literature to enhance our appreciation of those who live and love differently is an unmitigated good. Then there are those, such as yourself, who would rather all gay folks simply hid themselves away, without upsetting our pristine vision of the Universe. I much prefer the former vision.
Before you ask, yes, I am teaching my kids to disregard sexual orientation as something to consider as important in people. Who one loves is unimportant. That one loves is necessary to our survival as a species.
Your use of the word "filth" in you comment tells me more than I wish to know about how you feel about gay people, and how you think society should treat them.
Truly awful.
There you go again. Can you for once, get it straight (no pun intended) that asking for clarification is far superior and desirable to assuming you know what I mean. So I'll paint you a picture:
I have a problem with homosexual behavior. I have a problem with sex as "love" in general. It is a lie to soothe the consciences of those who fill it with importance. And herein you, like too many, confuse love and lust. They are not the same, and they are not working in tandem in most relationships these days. Lust takes precedence for too many with love given token consideration. Homosexuality is a totally lust driven phenomena. This is not to say that agape love cannot exist, but it is secondary to the lustful desire. As such, lust is a selfish urge. It is true even within the traditional and morally superior marriage.
But all this misses the more important point, which is that kids don't need sex pushed down their throats because some liberal intellectuals WANT it to be better for them, not because it is. Why can't you let the kids be kids and enjoy what little innocence life nowadays allows? Is that too fuckin' much to ask? Is pushing the homo agenda so important that it can't wait until the kids are at least in high school? It's child abuse, for pete's sake. Why not just give them porno movies and let them have at it? If this is a mark of being progressive, then I prefer no progress be made. This fits well within your EVIL discussion if you can't see what's wrong with subjecting kids to this stuff.
And yeah, I know that out of wedlock sex is not new. DUH! Are you saying you're PROUD that your greatgrandmother was a bastard? That her parents were weak-willed crotch centered people? I would find it unfortunate to find such in my ancestry no matter the liklihood.
If you want to be a good parent, teach them rather that controlling one's desires is the way to go. I don't teach mine to beat up homos, but they know that homosex is wrong and that their own, as well as my own, pre-marital escapades is wrong as well. Perhaps even evil.
Just leave the kids alone.
"As Rothstein suggests, Dumbledore's sexual preference is irrelevant."
Not to him it wasn't, regardless of which way he swung. LOL
Apparently it's only irrelevant now that she tells us he's gay. Didn't have a problem with it when you assumed he was straight, eh? Funny that no one stomped around and ranted and raged about how straight Harry is. After all, there were plenty of heterosexual romances in the books. Funny that no one thought THAT should be deleted in order to maintain kids' innocence.
"And herein you, like too many, confuse love and lust. They are not the same, and they are not working in tandem in most relationships these days."
I'd agree that too many confuse love and lust. But perhaps you should look in the mirror. Apparently all you can see of gay people is sex, and cannot imagine for a moment that two men or two women could love each other. How sad.
"Why can't you let the kids be kids and enjoy what little innocence life nowadays allows? Is that too fuckin' much to ask? Is pushing the homo agenda so important that it can't wait until the kids are at least in high school? It's child abuse, for pete's sake."
Blah, blah, blah. Don'tcha love it when people play the "its for the children" card? Obviously in this case, Marshall is referring to the straight children.
"The homo agenda". ROFL. Did I just walk into the 1950s? Do people still talk like that? Why not just use the much-preferred "fags"?
"I don't teach mine to beat up homos,..."
Wow ... you're a frackin' saint. Shall we nominate you for a medal? Don't worry, I'm sure they get the message anyway.
Well enough of Marshall's nonsense.
Geoffrey, I'd say that Dumbledore was not a good gay role model at all, for any number of reasons, particularly the stereotypes JKR uses as "evidence" of his orientation:
* Her understanding of gay childhood was apparently ripped from the pages of Freud: absent father, overbearing mother. Heck, it sounds like something Marshall would have written.
* His one and only love interest, Grindelwald, turned out to be a psychopathic killer.
* The rest of his life is riddled with loneliness, despair, guilt, and regret.
And, by keeping this secret and not making it apparent in the text itself, she has simply reinforced Marshall's notion that the only good "homo" is one that shuts up, keeps his place, doesn't rock the boat, and doesn't ever, ever come out, not to mention she continues the notion that gay people are not to be included in any portrayal of society, particularly not in children's literature. As a friend of mine said, "He might have been a great wizard, but he was a lousy gay man."
"Shall we nominate you for a medal?"
I nominated him for the Peace Prize.. But.. then.. we all know how that went.
"The homo agenda"
Ehe.. been down this dark, short and twisted road with MA. It seems hes proving how manly he is by not giving into this "evil" side.
"it sounds like something Marshall would have written."
From what I understand (having never read the books), they are not exactly literary works of art. The whole thing with Dumbledore smacks of Rowling reaching for some depth in her work that may (or may not) be there. Then again.. would all these people have purchased the books if they suspected? She does seem to be all about the money.
In the end.. I suppose.. MA is right. It is all about the kids. And, honestly, who cares what an individuals sexual preferences are. We are all about the individual, right? Anyway, the kids really dont or shouldnt care about Dumbledore's identity. Just imagine how shocking its going to be when it turns out Harry was... straight!
I think that Alan makes an interesting point about Dumbledore's roots and subsequent life, and it being less than stellar, and somewhat stereotypical. I had not thought that part through that much (especially the whole loneliness thing - great point). On the other hand, I stand by my larger point that his being gay is important for who his character is and how he functions in the books.
"It's all about the kids" - exactly. The sexiest moment in the book is when Harry gets his first kiss, and it isn't even mentioned until after it happens, so I don't know what the hubbub is about. Other than the outward manifestations of teenage affection and attraction, there is no sign of struggle with masturbation, the almost constant desire for sex, the discussions about it between friends, etc. - in that sense the books are quite deficient.
Love versus lust - so, Marshall, you think gay folks are only in it for sex, because you can't possibly imagine having a romantic attachment to a person of the same gender, perhaps? I'm really not sure what that comment means, really. Lust is a healthy part of anyone's emotional diet - it physically keeps the species alive, if nothing else. My only problem with "lust" is when it becomes either destructive of relationships (one based solely on sexual release). Incorporating a healthy feeling of lust towards the person you love is the sign of a lively, healthy relationship.
On the one hand you teach your kids "not to beat up homos". As Alan says, how saintly of you. Yet, you use words such as filth, the term "homo", etc., so I wonder, what message do you send your children, exactly, about those who are different?
I think, after this little discussion that my judgment that this isn't very important is wrong. I think that it is important, if for no other reason than the books have such cultural resonance.
"The sexiest moment in the book is when Harry gets his first kiss,..."
You know, I don't know why she had to include that in the book. Or why did she include the scene at the end of the last book everyone has kids -- clearly flaunting the fact that they've had sexual intercourse in poor young readers' faces. Even Hagrid had a love interest. Do we really want our children picturing that?! Why can't she let the kids be kids and enjoy what little innocence life nowadays allows? Is that too frackin' much to ask? Is pushing the hetero agenda so important that it can't wait until the kids are at least in high school? It's child abuse, for pete's sake.
"On the other hand, I stand by my larger point that his being gay is important for who his character is and how he functions in the books."
I'm less sure. I think if she'd wanted to make this an important aspect of his character, she would have made it obvious (like she did every other character's sexuality.) I suppose it's somewhat less coded in the movies, as Dumbledore has clearly been dipping into Bea Arthur's "Golden Girls" wardrobe.
In order to make Dubledore obviously gay, perhaps she could have made him a right winger who rants about the "homosexual agenda". These days nothing quite says "Screaming Queen", quite like the right wing bigot act. That image has now taken its place alongside such other notable gay cliches as hair stylist, florist, interior decorator, and Catholic priest.
What's next I ask you?! How much worse can this get? Sheesh ... next thing you're going to tell me is that Uncle Arthur from Bewitched was gay.
Wasn't Uncle Arthur played by Paul Lynde? 'Nuff said, I think . . .
I think we can agree to disagree about the place of Dumbledore's sexual orientation within the larger scheme of Rowling's work. I think, however, that it is, as I said, as much the cultural importance of the books that has created the stir as any literary merit the books might or might not have. That is an issue for another day, another post, and another blog.
I do like your whole rant against the "hetero" agenda thing. Nice touch. It would have nice, after all, to show Neville Longbottom (with a name like that what do you think?) and his partner in their adulthood. Be that as it may, a popular book purporting to show the growing pains of a teenage boy that does not include some discussion of, say, self-interest or the occasionally obsessive way sexual thoughts intrude upon a young man's life (and the embarrassing results that keep so many teenage boys in their chairs) does lack a little something in the reality department.
Having a gay teacher isn't a big deal. Having a gay teacher at what purports to be an English public school is not surprising (buggery was not invented by the English navy, but at the English public schools). The only people who have a problem with Dumbledore's sexuality are those, like Marshall and Bill O'Reilly who have a pre-existing condition called homophobia.
Homophobia--the mythical condition created from thin air by those who wish to get their sexual jollies in unnatural ways. My pre-existing condition is an unconditional devotion to God's Will as described in Scripture. You should try it sometime.
Hey Alan,
Your attempt to equate homo & hetero lifestyles would be funny if it wasn't so stupid. It's like teasing a carpenter for using a hammer to drive nails. It's the proper use of the equipment.
Young teens experiencing their first kiss might be premature for some, but it is natural between a boy and a girl of that age. You may not be aware, but teens date. It's all the rage I hear. And presenting kids with images or descriptions of traditional marriages IS appropriate for them. Presenting unnatural acts as normal is abusive and entirely inappropriate.
Perhaps in the next kids series to come along, we'll hear of a nice guy who loves his goat. Oh what a lonely life he'll lead when the goat dies. It'll be so sad.
Geoffrey,
I believe you missed the part where I said, "This is not to say that agape love cannot exist..." But yes, they are driven by their urges. Then they try to find someone with whom they can pretend to play house. But it really doesn't matter since the practice is unnatural and sinful. And I also made reference to similar urges driving most heteros as well. But if you think lust is necessary for a healthy relationship, yours is not healthy. Go ahead and test it. If you truly love your wife, sex is unnecessary. I dare ya.
And you all could not be more dishonest tahn to suggest that there doesn't exist an agenda by the homosexual community. It's found in a book, the title of which begins "After the Ball" I believe. It's visible to anyone with eyes with every little whine that emanates from their mouths. And people like yourselves have bought into it and are happy to put kids at risk by your easy-going attitudes regarding sexuality. How freakin' (it's "freakin'", Alan, not "frackin'"---probably a typo, but Geoffrey loves to correct in this manner. He probably missed it) how freakin' irresponsible.
Marshall rants: "(it's "freakin'", Alan, not "frackin'"---probably a typo,"
First of all, I meant "frackin'." It's a Battlestar Galactica reference, genius. I thought that was better than the expletive you used on a public blog that any kid could read. What about the children!? (I hope that's not the same mouth you kiss your kids with, potty mouth.)
"Your attempt to equate homo & hetero lifestyles would be funny if it wasn't so stupid. "
Second of all .... why are you hitting on me?
Enjoy:
http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2007/10/25/boll/index.html
Alan - I salute you, sir. With my hand, Marshall. Must you sexualize everything?
Seriously, though... Marshall, you seem very agitated about homosexuality, and I think that's a sad state of affairs. After all, you're expending so much energy on your anger towards homosexuals, people that were born in the image of God just like you. Yesterday, I listened to an interview with the author of "The Year of Living Biblically," and the author was asked how he dealt with homosexuality and he responded that in choosing to live Biblically, he had to make some choices about which precepts to follow, because some of them are contradictory. So, as he thought over the question of homosexuality, he decided that since Jesus said nothing about homosexuality in his teachings, that he could let go of the Old Testament teachings on the subject.
Marshall, have you read any of the articles that have been appearing lately on the web regarding the resurgence of the liberal aspect of Christianity? It seems that some fundamentalist Christian groups are moving their activities away from a focus on Abortion and Homosexuality towards a focus on Christ's teachings, addressing social justice. How do you feel about that movement? Would you be comfortable with a fundamentalist movement that would identify themselves with the poor and the dispossessed?
Certainly the homosexual community in America has been ostracized, so I would think that outreach to aspects of the homosexual community would be a natural outgrowth of such a movement. Not to change their orientation, but to support them, to help them find peace in their lives and their identities. Think about being a young homosexual in an American small town. A Christian outreach group that supported that young person through their period of sexual self-definition without pushing them toward rejecting their own feelings would be an amazing thing. But of course, that would require that the people in that group accept homosexuality as an orientation, forsaking the view that it is a sinful choice. That requires a type of love that some might not be ready to give. Would you be up to challenging yourself to embrace Christ's love for all people?
I do love when someone purports to know the content of my heart.
This hullaballoo about lusting in our hearts (thank you Jimmy Carter) reminds me of a quote from Mel White, pastor, former ghostwriter for the religious right, and now founder and director of SoulForce, when he was interviewed on the Larry King show:
"A caller asked what Mel and his partner did in bed. Even though Larry King hung up on the caller for being rude, White answered, “What do we do in bed? We’ve been together for 24 years—we sleep in bed.”
And why, oh Lord, why do conservatives always play this stupid (stupid!) slippery-slope card and start talking about bestiality when they talk about gay sex? It only ever comes up when the fundies are around. With all of interesting items in the queer sexual repertoire that kind of stuff never comes up, but boy you get a fundie or two in the room and suddenly its "goat sex this" and "dog sex that".
I tell you, its disgusting! I can't believe we'd let these folks around our...children.
"Enjoy:"
Ha.. Love it..
"traditional marriages"
Umm.. like Brit and K-Fed?
One more disturbing quality to all this is MA's insistence that he reads the bible "correctly". But, what do I know... I just live in sin (or so I'm told).
Let's move backwards, shall we? Parklife, we all live in sin. One of the gifts of the Reformation was the acknowledgment that we are always both justified and still trapped in sin - at least in this life. So, don't sweat it. Somehow, I think God has a bit more to do than be angry at you for sharing a home and life with the person you love.
Second, Brian, the reason folks equate gay sex with bestiality is because they are ignorant. Also, straight fundies are mightily interested in what goes on in private between gay folks because they're interested. Why else?
Jim, as someone who has been following the morphing of fundamentalism away from gay-bashing and fetus-hugging, I know whereof you speak. I think that many older fundies would be uncomfortable in a church where they couldn't differentiate themselves from others by their purity of intent and hatred of difference.
Alan, he's not hitting on you. Flirting, maybe . . .
Marshall, Marshall, Marshall - you nailed it, buddy. All us liberal types invented the idea of hatred of gays and lesbians because, obviously, in a country where in thirty-eight states it is legal to fire a person for their sexual orientation; in a country that insists on defining a waning institution as limited to a man and a woman, legally excluding gays and lesbians from the legal benefits of marriage; in a country where many still are forced to live in hiding, for fear of the reactions of family and friends; where a young man can be brutally beaten and killed for the horrid sin of trying to pick up another young man - yes, you are so right, homophobia is a figment of liberal imagination.
"Driven by their urges"? Marshall, even closing in on my 42nd birthday, I'm driven by my urges, too. To eat. To sleep. To be with my wife as often, as well, as possible. To shelter my children. I have all sorts of urges, in common with every other human being I know. The only difference between a gay man and me, is they direct their romantic feelings towards another man. Period.
You know, I have to wonder, in all seriousness. Marshall, you rant about how evil homosexual sex is. I have to wonder - have you ever seen lesbian porn? C'mon, like all guys you've taken a peek at the sight of two women having sex even once, haven't you? Do you know why such is so prevalent? Because straight guys like to watch that kind of thing!! At least I will admit that I have, on occasion, glimpsed such images.
Do y'all not realize that Dumbledore is a fictitious character, who appearantly spent the last 7 books in the imaginary closet.
Great example to all those closeted gay wizards out there.
Sorry, my analogy was incomplete. Although Dumbledore is a fictitious character, who appearantly did spend 7 books in the closet. His is, alas, not a coming out gay pride moment. Instead he was outed by his "mother". Therefor we need to add for all those closeted gay wizards out there, beware. You never know when those you thought loved you will turn on you.
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