Conversations Elsewhere

Joel Watts moderates a blog newly-retitled "Unsettled Christianity". In a discussion on a thread there concerning the AFA's opposition to a proposal before the Michigan legislature on bullying and sexual minority youth, Joel - who is a wonderful person extending a more than enough benefit of the doubt in order to open up space for discussion, offers up a link to the following:

On the one hand, many gay persons feel like Christians are attempting to bully them by passing laws against gay marriage or civil unions. On the other hand, Christians feel like many gay persons are attempting to bully them by passing laws to silence them so that they can no longer express their beliefs. The way forward is not to embrace the bully-victim cycle as the paradigm of choice but rather to realize that different views exist and that such views can be expressed without malevolent intent.

In the case of the teenagers who have recently killed themselves, bullying has been argued to be a factor. While no bully can ever be fully blamed for someone choosing to end their own life, there is certainly truth to the claim that they may have contributed to the stress that led to someone's choice to commit suicide. Again, however, it might benefit us all to ask whether or not the bully-victim cycle was at work in the background of such events. When we do this, it may move us away from merely defaming others and pointing fingers to getting closer to the heart of the matter. Once we to begin ending the cycle is to attempt to find its recent starting point(s).

If you clicked the link, the very first sentence, in my estimation, spells trouble:

From the start, I want folks to know that I write this post as a person who has had close family members and friends who have been and/or are gay. I know the pains and struggles that many of them have faced and still deal with, and I am more than familiar with the sense of rejection that they have experienced, especially from religious folks. I also write this post as a Christian and even more, as a Christian who lives in the midst of the tensions between two groups who often seem to be at loggerheads with one another: the gay community and the evangelical church.

Rather than see through the muddle created by any false equivalence, the author jumps in and celebrates that muddle. Rather than hear the cries of the suffering, we are called to understand a cycle in which poor Christian kids feel bullied by non-existent attempts to silence them and their "beliefs".

In response to this, I responded as follows:

While I appreciate the earnest desire behind this post, I disagree with it. At the heart of the (right-wing) anti-gay rhetoric of some who call themselves Christian is the explicit denial of their fundamental humanity. "You aren't 'gay', you are a sinner. You can and must choose to live your life differently than you do, or you are going to hell."

For me, this has to change. It denies the reality that a person does not "choose" to be gay. A person "is" gay. Denying that reality, as Deb does repeatedly, does not make it a fact. It makes it an ignorant statement of bigotry, a point that is quite clearly beyond her.

Furthermore, if there was a rash of Christian teens offing themselves because queer teens were bullying them, I would be up in arms. If there were Christians who refused to self-identify because of fear that their parental/spousal rights and privileges would be stripped from them, or that they would lose their jobs, I would be incensed. If there was a whole network of Queer websites telling Christians that religion, as a matter of choice, can be changed, and should be in order for the country to be better, I would be fighting against that.

This is an example, in other words, of false equivalence, masked as evenhandedness.

On this same thread, we have Deb, who wrote the following:

1st. Explain why a married man with a family after years decides to leave his family for another man if it is Not a choice?
2nd . He had a roommate watching? in a college dorm? and yes he is to blame somewhat,should have went to a motel...
3rd.I had to toughen up. lots do ....
4th, God did not create Men to sleep with men, and women to sleep with women,He created man and then created woman for his helpmate,not another man,He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for just that...do you believe the Bible?
4th, Jesus rebuked the woman at the well, He told her to go and sin NO more... love is to be able to rebuke your brother, If you did not you would not care what he does,you would not want him to die in his sin... Love does not mean to just let everything slide like it is not wrong... to strive to be holy.. What would you think Yeshua would say to people today? I know he would love them and does, but do you think that he would go along with all the worlds sin? If my son was gay,or daughter, I would still love them but would not let them be together in my home, would I be wrong?

To which I responded:

You write: "Explain why a married man with a family after years decides to leave his family for another man if it is Not a choice?"

Because people like you deny the reality that being gay is about who they are. Because people like you insist they are evil, wrong, a threat to our faith and society.

Sorry if this is harsh and judgmental, but my patience is at an end. It is precisely people who insist that are "anti-gay" yet draw a line at violence that make me wonder - why draw the line? You are denying the humanity of sexual minorities. Why not do violence to them, since they are less than fully human, in your eyes?

i have no desire to listen to drivel glossed in a misreading of the Bible. I have even less than zero desire to have someone call themselves "anti-gay" and ask to be treated with respect. Had you written "anti-black", say, or "anti-Jew", I would treat you in much the same way.

She has since responded, in a way:

anti-gay? is so much different than being anti-black or anti-jew,,, sorry, you are born either black, not much you can do about that, or jewish, . lots of things you are born into that you can change.. it is a choice,,, sin is a choice, being holy is a choice, and not anyone , is a threat to my faith.... now society, that is a whole different ballgame,,, what our children are taught and what they learn makes them what they are when grown...and also, what do you think adultery is, it is not just a married couple cheating on each other, any fornication is Adultery... I think that would include men with men and women with women...

I refuse to respond to this last, for the same reason I don't argue with creationists, global-warming deniers, and Holocaust deniers. She is wrong, she will not be convinced she is wrong, and treating her position as if it had any merit whatsoever only reinforces the notion that her position is something other than bigotry cloaked in nonsense.

Just thought I'd point all this out.